This one is a bit baffling.

Came in next door with a broken cambelt.  New belt, tensioners and pushrods fitted.  Started, a bit noisy, but otherwise Ok.

Came straight back in with a broken pushrod on #4 inlet.  Head off; all the inlet valves are hitting the pistons - big time.

Cam timing re-checked - all perfect; cam/crank keyways fine.  Timing pin in correct hole in flywheel.

Apart from the new pushrods looking different and being 0.4mm longer overall than the old ones, nothing seems out of place.  [All valve clearances are correct.]

I'm working on the premise that the cam is too advanced - but how?

As you suggested, you would expect the valve timing to be wrong for the valves to hit.

Were they all still hitting, or were the scars from when the belt failed originally?

All still hitting; there was one broken new pushrod, the rest of the inlets were bent.

Oval big ends? Maybe check deck heights?

Just an auto electrician throwing something into the mix (please be gentle with the abuse!) so probably well wide of the mark.

Regards, Ian.

To actually bend the valves, I'd put my last pound on the valve timing being out.

Had a Discovery ages ago which we had the head skimmed on, the valves hit. We ended up using a headsaver on it. Even so, it didn't bend the valves.

Dave, How do you mean cam lobes moved?

Any possibilty that the lobes have "Moved" on the  camshaft !!

Regards

DaveH

     Back to basic's, confirm position of TDC with DTI (or bubble on injector port )  Then confirm cam timing with DTI if data avaliable or at least check valves on the rock.

    Cheers Aidan

from memory there are two cambelts for these..............................................

Angus,

          the pushrods, followers and rockers were revised during August 1998. I only have the later pushrod in stock, so I cannot compare. I assume tensioner (s) was a Freudian Slip - only one tensioner, and no idler pulleys on these.  I wonder if the later pushrods have been supplied for a '99 registered vehicle that was built prior to August 1998. PM me the VIN, I can check.

I had a look at the pistons with the head off and they all seem the same deck-height - it's a thought though....

Chris

I saw the van when it first came in [it's right by my back door] and the head wasn't removed - up to that point it was a routine broken cam-belt job.

Dave

I did consider a composite camshaft; but as Ford say no - and you have to turn the van upside down to remove it - that one will have to wait.  I'm right in thinking that to hit inlets, it's too advanced?

There are three, '84 to'91, '91  to '97 and '97 to 2000.

Angus, are you happy with their competence? Did you see the belt in situ, timed correctly, or was it that they said it was definately right?

Yes, Angus, Inlet valves opening too earlier, so cam timing overadvanced. Having said that, these lock up with pins so shouldn't be able to get it wrong, IF done correctly.

The timing hole seems to be about 20^o off TDC; 1 and 4 pistons are about an inch down the bore.

No data on cam timing - DTI available if needed.

Martin

Could that alter timing?

Rad

VIN WFOLXXBDVLWG01205

Rods fitted are:-  1076474

All

The rule of nine doesn't seem to work?  Is this "mirror?"

on second thoughs a broken crank could also alter the cam timing in relation to certain cylinders depending where the break was.

As you suggest, even if cambelt was wrong, that doesn't mean timing should be wrong.

Rule of nine will only work if it's Ex In In Ex Ex In In Ex. If it's Ex In Ex In Ex In Ex In, when No 1 Ex is open adjust No 4 Ex etc.

We're struggling to set the tappets; it locks up with them set both rule of 9 - or Fiesta-style.

wor-mate

Going to try your cam-timing test now; may be hard with no proper tappet setting possible.

Chris

The flywheel marks agree with AD [starter removed to check.]  I'll go and look at the valve positions.

Angus, Reading between the lines, the head is back on then. If No 1 or 4 is at TDC, then NO1 or No 4 valves should be on the 'rock' You should be able to determine this with the belt off. Set the crank at TDC and rock the cam with a spanner.

I'm off to see Stella

Yes; it's freshly back on.  It's locking-up so much that it's a strain to even get a tappet set.  Its E;I:E:I:E:I:E:I [no O!]  Tried setting Ex 1 to Ex 4 etc. all OK - still locks.

Enjoy your Stella; this will wait till tomorrow.  Could be a timing hole issue - wrong flywheel?

Anyone got the basic valve timing for DTI.  No TDC mark on it; but the injectors are out, so that can be ascertained.

     Do you have the contact info for Ford tech help ?  I have had mixed results with them, but they should be able to give valve timing info.

     I think I would make a TDC mark & check cyl 4 rocking for starters.  As you said, cam timing marks are often of set from TDC ( to prevent valve contact when assembling.)

  Cheers Aidan

TO clear all minds not that it matters even if the setting points are wrong all you will get is MORE clearance.

be careful

with injectors removed insert a (sturdy) stop through the head to engage the piston, which should be GENTLEY eased up to the stop by rotating clock wise, accurately mark off the crank pulley and block / case, now rotate anti clock til the piston stops against the stop and mark off block / case mark to pulley, divide the two with a protractor and you have a tdc mark to line up with the block / case mark, then check this against the flywheel pin hole

                  the 'specified' method for valve clearance adjustment on the 2.5 D is using the following pairs: 1 and 6, 4 and 7, and then  2 and 3,  5  and 8. So, when valves 1 and 6 are open, adjust 4 and 7, likewise 2 and 3 open, adjust 5 and 8 and vice versa.

SO like my attachment an hour ago

Kev.

       those attachments of yours aren't opening up for me, maybe not for others too ?

Thanks for the info; that is one odd sequence - wouldn't hurt AD [or Vivid, Chuck] to include a warning in the adjustment data list.

As Kevin said; you can only get more clearance by setting them on the ramp - not less; so there's more to discover about this deceptively simple job.

pjl

They seem to close smartly cold; might be sticking hot.

Paul

Thanks for the reminder; I'd forgotten that easy and accurate way of doing it.

Aidan etc.

I'll have a go at marking TDC and checking for #4 cyl rocking in the morning -  that's late morning, naturally.   If it turns out to be the timing out; then the cam-belt will get set by suck-it-and-see!

Valve timing:

No 1 piston at TDC - insert a 13mm drill bit into the hole at the rear of the engine, just above the starter motor (I think you've already done that).

With the crankshaft in this position, you should be able to insert an 8mm drill bit through the camshaft sprocket and into the drilling behind it.

You should now also be able to insert a 9mm drill bit through the U-shaped cut-out in the injection pump sprocket and into the drilling behind it.

If so, the timing is correct. If not, the belt is out a tooth or two. Minor adjustments can be made via the elongated holes in the injection pump sprocket.

Valve clearances:

Not rule of nine, so set as follows:

Valves fully open                                                                           Valves to adjust

1 and 6                                                                                           4 (In) and 7 (Ex)

2 and 3                                                                                           5 (Ex) and 8 (In)

4 and 7                                                                                           1 (Ex) and 6 (In)

5 and 8                                                                                           2 (In) and 3 (Ex)

Valve clearances:

Inlet           0.20 mm

Exhaust     0.38 mm

Chuck

Thanks

All duly printed-off and left in the Tranny outside; that'll keep Jonno busy until I get up.

Dave

The monstrous dents in the pistons [1mm deep] are definitely from after the new belt and pushrods; four new pushrods are ruined and it's still hitting the inlet valves.

Current theory is that it was a booby-trap.  The broken belt wasn't timed with the pins - maybe a mis-matched part has been fitted in the past; wrong flywheel or cam pulley??

Hope this may help Dave.  

Do you have a natural in built ability to attract these jobs?

I was thinking along the lines of Ian's post as well. But, if she locks up whilst turning over, then it cant be that.

Unless.... It started off as a knocking end, and this has caused one of the pulleys to shift off line. Has the oil level been checked? (I take it the engine was not turned over by hand before it was restarted. But if it was, then why didn't the engine lock then?)

Just had another mad idea......

If the "new" valve clearances don't cure it, then try setting a rough cam timing manualy. Ie, one tooth forward, then two back, then three forward, then five back etc. Once you get the engine to turn over by hand, you can then see if there are any proper timing marks that are nearly lining up.

Angus,

            built in Dec 1998, correct rods.

Cam and crank keyways are reportedly perfect.

Tony  [Of course I attract them - it's a gift...]

I can't see it's all four piston being too high; they don't hit the head [and, I'm told, there's only one thickness of gasket for this engine. ]

Theo  [I never assume....  ]

Correct pushrods confirmed.  [Thanks Rad]

Same head; same valves; rockers are present and correct.

Latest.

The manual cam timing has been performed [no details, I wasn't there] and it now doesn't hit the pistons any more - unfortunately; after complete re-assembly, it doesn't start either....

More news on Monday.  My neighbour Jonno's had quite enough of it for one week.  [He'll definitely stick to his Land-Rovers after this one...]

It would be odd though, as they will usualy only fit in one position due to dowel or uneven spaced bolts.  

I've just had another look at AD to see if it's timed at TDC or half stroke, but it's not clear.

I'm sure that if you set the crank at TDC, regardless of the marks, pins or whatever. Then the cam with the valves on the rock. Fit the belt, not worrying about the pump for the moment. Turn over until the cam locking pin can be fitted, then time the pump to the cam. Hope you get what I mean.

Oh, and then fire it up.  

Cheers Chris

maybe its a carbon build up on the valves?

We do seem to be getting a lot more of it these days.

Had you given that any consideration Angus?

Not a lot of carbon on the inlet,s after the piston,s have given the valves a GOOD RING.

Kev.

Seems to me that on achieving an engine that will turn you've lost the pump timing, so could very well be a crank issue

Not meaning to teach people to suck eggs, but can not see how this could be valves sticking on the return as we ( you) have bent push-rods, which suggest tension between piston, valve gear and cam, and not piston, valve and a gap of air, and surely whilst the head was off the valve seating was check for fouling.

Slack tappet (thats my nane not a suggestion)

Chris

The flywheel matched AD's picture; so should be OK; that's exactly what I'd planned to do - except it was all back together before I got up.  [Now it's all got to come apart again.]

I hadn't given carbon a lot of consideration - there I go; assuming again.... 

Paul

The flywheel pin fits in with the pistons about an inch down the bore; that would seem logical - but may be wrong.  Piston damage seems fairly even - it being an imprecise process.  [Don't fret about the carbon - that's an in-joke from elsewhere.]  When I get a chance; I'll set it to TDC by your method, using an open valve as a stop, get #4 on the rock, fit the belt and pin pump and crank only.

Slack, me old mate [where'ya'bin?]

The old belt was a Gates in quite good nick.  It had failed diagonally with all teeth attached; possibly from an edge nick.  No obvious cause; put down to foreign object damage.

I believe this is were the problem lies, quite confident that the pin should be tdc, do you have tension on turning the injection pump pulley to insert the timing pin?

I've confirmed with Jonno that the pistons were 1" down the bore when pinned. 

It's all apart again and we're just marking precise TDC with the belt off and #1 valve open as a stop; prior to setting #4 cyl on the rock.

 Will be interesting to see what you find with the tdc mark up?

Found TDC and set #4 cyl on the rock; then refitted the belt and turned it to pin crank and pump together .  The cam ended up two notches [out of 48] out on it's pin hole.

All put back together - and, this time, it started - until you revved it, when it knocked and stopped.  More bent pushrods...

It's all coming apart again.....

ohmygodnotagain!

Did YOU check the cam pulley key.

Kev.

No; but it's Jonno's job and he says he did. 

After many years of working on Land-Rovers and Volvo plant, including totally re-building their mega-buck engines; if he says it was all right, then I'll assume that it was.... 

He's given up for tonight [and it's started him smoking again!] but with the top off; the valve clearances appear to be unchanged.  [Which is good; as the rods are £70 for 4.]

The injectors are coming out again and I'm going to check the clearance on both rocking valves at TDC; this has got to be just a notch one-way-or-the-other now, it turned by hand without obvious contact at compression.  [For the first time...]  Could be just piston fling.

I think it would be wise to re-check your new timing points first and see if no4 is still on the rock.

Kev.

Do you have any breaker yards close by, may be quicker and cheaper to ask if they have any tranny engines knocking around, either missing heads or injectors, to check relation between flywheel and tdc

Check your tdc mark with the timing pin in place, does it check out with my theory of the flywheel being out by 45 degrees?

Just about everything that could be said about this problem has already been said.

After reviewing all the posts again, and not wishing to step on anyones toes if they have already said this but:

1)  I'm not sure if when the timing pins are in position, the engine is at TDC. It could possibly be about 50 degrees BTDC.

2)  The flywheel has a locating dowel so it can only be fitted in one position on the crankshaft.

3)  If you lock the crankshaft, camshaft and pump with the timing pins, they will all be correct in respect of each other. It won't matter if it's TDC or not - it will be the timing point for fitting the new belt. Has this actually been done?

Chuck

A recheck and one-notch alteration is the plan for tomorrow.

Chuck

Yes; it was setting it with pins that exposed the problem.  To get the valves to miss the pistons, the cam pulley needs timing one to three notches out.  [Currently, I think it's 2 notches retarded.]  The crank and the pump work OK when pinned and set - but not the cam.

I'm thinking that rules out a flywheel issue [the pump timing would be out] and indicated that this is a camshaft to cam-pulley mis-match.

I'll be more certain of that once it's running...

I still say if you get the crank at TDC, cam on the rock, fit the belt regardless of the pump timing. Turn until you can insert the pin in the camwheel, then re-time the pump to the cam.

So, when you pulled the rocker cover off, it hadn't hit the valves, maybe pump timing advanced giving diesel knock.

Advanced pump = knock YES  Advanced pump = knock then stop unlikely if you know what i mean

Kev.

Anyway down to absolute basics, if the the camwheel is located correctly on the cam. Then it only leaves flywheel incorrectly located on crank, or vice versa, for the valves to hit.

Piston at bdc, welding rod sat on piston and rod marked

Correct tools for timing, not some dodgy drill bit

welding rod at TDC

Crank pin in place with a slight rock of the crank

So as i was trying to point out earlier the crank is sat 45 deg out, as Chris says dowel is most likely missing gearbox out is easy and would make it a proper job

Back to my pint of spitfire

Russ

Question about the injectors still stands though (engine swap?)

Been at this, on-and-off, all day.  With the crank at the TDC mark; [thanks Paul] the cam will pin exactly - but it won't run.

Playing with the pump pulley [every possible combination tried] either won't start, or is as flat as Raikonen's exhaust pipe and blue smokes.  Looks like the pump has been "adjusted" to compensate for the wrong timing.

Does anyone know the pump timing figures for the DTI gauge?

If, as you suggest the crank and cam are correct in relation to each other, then you would expect it to be not too much trouble to fiddle with the pump. You havn't got many teeth to choose from before you get to the point where it won't run.

It seems odd for pump to be wrong as well, couldn't still be a tooth out on the crank?

We've got the flywheel in the right place now and the pin is in cam and crank nicely; there are five notches on the pump pulley on which it will start - three one way and two the other.

On some it will start instantly, idle nicely and sounds normal - until you drive it.....  [It still sounds like a bucket of nails mechanically; but maybe it always did!] 

On all the 5 notches that it will actually start on, it's been drive-tested [the rad's been in and out like a Hokey-Cokey] and it can hardly drag itself along - with varying amounts of smoke.

Remember on Friday when it was pin-timed to a TDC mark and it wouldn't start - well; we're back there.

        Can you set pump with dail gauge in back and forget the marks ?

       pump 180 out ?

         I had a transporter ( the rear cam pump belt)  pump was 180 degrees out and it still ran, not well but would pull along in top gear

      Cheers Aidan

These pumps also have a habit of breaking the springs in the rotor head, if there broken the pumps quite easy to rotate by the belt pulley 

It was looking good for a while; we'd got it on a reasonable setting and I was of the opinion that all it needed was a bit more driving - maybe all the alloy off the pistons had got on the exhaust valves etc.

The first road test went fine; still rattled like a bucket filled with rocks; but it was driving much, much, better and the smoke from the exhaust had virtually stopped.

Just before giving it back to the owner, all fixed; I suggested a final run up the A24 to really make sure..... 

I knew something wasn't right when it came back prematurely - and I was sure that there hadn't been thick smoke pouring out of both side windows when it left....

After obliterating the whole farm; it finally stopped revving [about 20 seconds after Jonno bailed out - with the keys!]  Black oil was dribbling out of the airbox and the exhaust - and we've cured that nasty rust problem on the rear doors....

SO thats a FIX then

Kev.

Pretty much; just a few minor adjustments, a new engine and it's sorted.... 

After three weeks, 60+ hours and a lot of grief; Jonno just cracked open a cold one and we sat there and laughed at the smoke still drifting out of all the doors.  Well.... you've got to, haven't you.

Paul was the star; it was his pictures that solved the conundrum - I just can't figure out why the pump was so far off?

Does this mean it's now as much use as an anal dutch cap?

A big thank-you mate; everyone helped, but your pictures proved the problem was in the crank timing.  Everything fell into place after that.  [Apart from the bits of piston that fell into the sump of course...]

I'll bear those pump settings in mind; but I doubt that we'll need them for this engine [or that it'll ever run again] and we'll make very sure that the secondhand unit comes with flywheel, pump and cam-belt attached!

You wouldn't believe the coincidence; but as we sat there watching the smoke drift slowly across the 700-acre deerpark, Jonno's mobile rang: it was a friend with an LDV Convoy; a 4HB Transit-engined one - with a broken cam-belt.....

oh I   ........      practice makes perfect

or was it    ..... it'll be alright on the night

Edited to add

My pleasure Angus, glad to help.

*****************************************************  Edited to add more info that I came across today, whilst the 2.5di times up at tdc the 2.4 duratorq ( 2000 onwards ) does time at 50 deg btdc, it may be this fact that had led to some confusion *************************************************************************************************8

So, as Paul neglected to mention to remove the welding rods before driving the van, the new engine is down to him then..........

The customer was undecided about fitting a new engine and has bought another Tranny; he turned up today with a trailer and it has gone......   Good!!