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RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Tony5 — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:25:30 GMT

Thanks CT,
I've spoken to the customer, they are getting their mechanics to check starter for shorting and also the earth lead, which i've suggested.
They said they'll speak to me after that [i know their mechanics hate electrics though, their theory is, if wires are attached to it, if's magical].

I'll keep you all updated as soon as i have something.

Thanks for all your efforts, it's much appreciated, and i'll be going through all suggestions [if/when i get back to it].

Regards

Tony

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

cartech — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:04:26 GMT

Tony, leave the ignition on for 1-minute and the pats light should flash fault codes. This will give us a pointer to the problem.

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Doc... — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:18:07 GMT

Hi Tony,

Is the PATS light built into the clock in the middle of the dash?

PM sent

Doc...

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Andy-01 — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:44:50 GMT

K And R (09/03/2010)

but i have a mondeo dtci in at the moment which i can,t read the PCM or PATS (Andy you may well get a call on that one SOON ) but that start,s and runs FINE.

That sounds like it has something non-Ford attached to the vehicle. Thats the most common cause for that sort of concern reading a module thats obviously functioning

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Cartune — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:04:07 GMT

Tony

Don't forget to programme his speed limiter to 56 when you get it going.

It'll prove that we learnt something at Dave's course.

Paul

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Tony5 — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:08:00 GMT

All,
What can i say, fantastic response, much appreciated to all.
The 1st thing i really need to do is the basics, especially regarding the earth [still can't believe i didn't check that, Angus will probably tell me off, again].
I did however check some voltages to the pcm, i know i have 12v to it, but am not 100% how much power/pressure is behind it. The bulb might be coming out again
Doc,
PATS light is flashing, but i'd expect that with no comms, what are you thinking?
Kev,
Spoke to one of their mechanics today, and he said it doesn't have a dmf, he thinks it has been changed
Andy,
Thanks very much for the great pointers, i'll go by the letter [so to speak], and also have a look on AD [and ford tis] at some engine management wiring diagrams, to get my head around your explanation.

I've no excuses now, just have to speak to the customer and get back to it asap [unless they want to send it to Ford, then i'll be gutted, i love a challenge, and hate being beaten, especially when i've received some great help and advice.

Thanks again to all, i'll let you know what happens.

Simples

Tony

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

K And R — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:39:23 GMT

Tony.

I agree with ANDY about the PATS not allowing cranking (well i would he knows more than ME and i,v been there, in and out code and alls well but only if you can comm with the PATS :w00t ) but i have a mondeo dtci in at the moment which i can,t read the PCM or PATS (Andy you may well get a call on that one SOON ) but that start,s and runs FINE.

SO basics first, pats light as DOC suggests, check earths and exciter wire to starter,if that goes live on crank we know the PATS is OK.

Kev.

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Doc... — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:14:14 GMT

Tony, what's the PATS light doing?

Cheers

Doc...

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

cartech — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:10:02 GMT

My bad. It's a fusible link.

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Andy-01 — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:09:49 GMT

Right, Pats is linked to the starter circuit. If the Pats fails to un-lock, you have no crank !

The PCM is the Pats master, so if the PCM is off line, you will have no crank.

You need to understand “how” the PCM powers up, and then the rest is a walk in the park.

Without a diagram to hand, you will have to bear with me.

PCM will have a permanent power supply, and a switched power supply.

Check first if they are present, if not, trace back.

Confirm correct grounds at the PCM, you will have a few, but all going to the same ground point.

Now, when the PCM receives the ignition sense, it will perform a POST. (Power On Self Test). If the POST passes, the PCM will switch a ground to the power hold relay, and that will provide about 3 additional lives back into the PCM.

So, the PCM powers up in two stages !!

At the first POST stage, the PCM checks the 5v Vref for path to ground. If a short is noted, the PCM inhibits the second part of the power on, as it knows it will result in a damaged module.

This stage is what catches people out.

So, if you have constant and switched live at the PCM, but you have no earth switch to the power hold relay, it’s failed the Vref. (That’s the 5v that’s provided from the pcm to the engine sensors). So, an internal short in something like the EGR position sensor, or pedal sensor for example can prevent the PCM powering up. That’s the one that blows peoples peanuts. !

Remove harness connections to all engine sensors that have a Vref. Do you get communications back ? If you do, reconnect one at a time to find the offending part.

If they are all disconnected, and still no communications, remove the PCM harness plug, and check each Vref wire for a path to ground !

If no faults are found, the module is goosed !

Now, if the PCM is closing the power hold relay, and you have correct battery voltage back to the PCM from the relay, (remember to volt drop test the lives), then I’m afraid it’s as simple again as the PCM is goosed.

ALL FORD PCM’s POWER ON THIS WAY. Its worth remembering.

See if you can find a diagram and follow it, you will see what I mean.

Simples

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Radnorman — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 01:56:27 GMT

cartech (08/03/2010)

For some strange reason, Ford put a ballast on the earth on these vans,

I had understood that these leads were fused. The February Edition of Unipart Automotive's Workshop Focus describes them as fused. I have looked at Wikipedia to gain a fuller understanding of the term "ballast".

I still don't 'get it'! To me, it is a fused lead.

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

cartech — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:21:09 GMT

For some strange reason, Ford put a ballast on the earth on these vans, and they're very prone to failing. The ballast is located near the floor, by the seat buckle. The RAC put an extra earth on their vans because of the problem.

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Tony5 — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:16:51 GMT

Thanks Speedy,
Will take that into account as well, especially as i haven't checked the battery earth
I can't believe how i still miss basics like that
The engine earth looked ok though.
Tony

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Speedy — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:53:23 GMT

Have problems with the main battery earth and the engine earth leads on these

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Tony5 — Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:04:40 GMT

Thanks Kev and Vitos,
I thought as much regarding pats, but wanted it confirmed, as i certainly wasn't 100%
I'll be speaking to the company tomorrow, and will ask for one of their mechanics to have a look at the starter motor. I'll also tell them about a suspected dmf [never thought of that one, cheers Kev].
Vitos,
As far as i can remember, the dash was ok, i'd also checked all the fuses, and bridged the starter relay using a 5a fused bridge. I will ask them to double check the dash though [just to make sure].
I've got to do some of this remotely as the customers workshops are 15 miles away, so it costs them when i turn up.
I'll report back when i've something solid [or not, eh Kev?]
Thanks again gents
Tony

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

vitos — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 17:39:31 GMT

Hi Tony, pats is internal to pcm on this year.

check all fuses very closely

are you able to read mileage on dash panel

relays are pretty poor on these aswell

RE: Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

K And R — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 17:02:38 GMT

Tony.

Unless i very mistaken, PATS will be inside PCM and the starter is most likely FOOKED due to a failed dual mass.

Kev.

Ford Transit 2003 2.4 Duratorq - None Start

Tony5 — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 16:48:47 GMT

All,
Have the above for one of my customers [civil engineers, so it's having a hard life].
It won't even crank, i have no comms with the pcm or pats [using IDS]. The dash lights up ok.
When i go in manually, i can get comms with the vehicle, but again nothing with the pcm. pats comes back with no fault code, but no comms with the module due to there being either no supply, no earth, or a faulty module.
I'd have thought the vehicle would at least crank, and am wondering whether i have 2 faults [one being a faulty starter motor, causing a short?].
It wouldn't surprise me if the starter motor had been burnt out with the customer [or rather one of their employee's] keep trying to start it.
Can anyone tell me where pats is so i can test for feeds and earths? Pm's are fine due to the security nature of the problem
Another piece of info, is the van is one of many [a fleet of them countrywide], the company is a national one.
Can anyone help?
Tony